Tags:Bible Christianity General Islam Israel Judaism Koran Palestine Taliban Torah“We have to believe in free will. We’ve got no choice”
Isaac Singer
How do I approach an issue as contentious as this in a manner that it would make my readers think rather than react emotionally? Well, I don’t believe that it is really possible, but let me try.
The first point I wish to make is that organized religion is a form of evil enslavement. Once you become part of it you are no longer free, spiritually and otherwise. You are told what you may think and what not. You are told what you may learn and study and what not; what you may do and what not; what you may wear and what not; what you may dream and what not. Like an evil demon it takes possession and control of body and soul.
The Bible, the Torah and the Koran are being used as a kind of godly blueprint for human existence. But not a single word in any of these documents have been written by anyone else than a ordinary human being like you and me. No church or religion are in possession of any knowledge or wisdom originating from anything else than the mind of a human being. Not a single church or religion can guarantee you salvation or a life hereafter.
Note: Nothing said herein should be interpreted as if I allege that there is no God or that the specific God worshiped by any of these religions do not exist. I however contend that human involvement in organized religion and the power it establishes over them, has corrupted faith and poses a threat to humanity.
Once you become possessed by organized religion, a freedom charter or human rights manifesto loses all its value and meaning. What does liberty and freedom mean if you soul is held in bondage by dogma? What does equality mean if you yourself (not God only) make the most basic judgment between a reborn-Christian-on-his-way-to-Heaven and the lost-soul-on-his-way-to-Hell?
Christians look with disgust at the Taliban and veiled Muslim women (and visa versa) and think by themselves “God, thank you that we are not like them”.
Muslims target innocent women and children with explosives fixed to their bodies and then have the audacity to shout Allah’s name. If that be what Allah stands for, I do believe that He commands Hell and not Heaven and the Paradise promised to you for the brutal murders you commit, will be excrusiating hot.
Jews on the other hand make as if the world is infinitely in their debt for their suffering in the Holocaust. I do not deny the Holocaust and neither do I in any way wish to diminish the incidence. But what gave rise to this extra-ordinary hate and how could it escalate to such a degree that the Holocaust became not only possible but a reality? Have the world learnt anything from it? For Jews to continue with their present course of behaviour in Israel – with the moral support of Jews worldwide - how long do you think before hate has escalated to such heights, that the next and even worse Holocaust takes place? Will we again have to accept responsibility for the suffering you have caused yourself? Please think for yourself: You just do not treat people like shit and think that you’re going to get away with it.
Is what you are doing in Israel/Palestine that what Judaism requires from you? Be that the case the only difference between Islam and Judaism surely is that the God of the Jews provides His people with more resources, better weapons and more powerful allies.
Christians are most probably the worst of all. It does not matter how heinous the crime is, they will find a verse in the Bible that justifies it – even if it means searching through the books they share with Judaism. Is this what your Jesus has been crucified for? Is this the kind of salvation we need to survive on?
If members of these faiths believe that their gods do not only condone but in fact demand the human behavior we have experienced over time in Israel/Palestine, Iraq, Bosnia, Darfur, Rwanda, DRC, Liberia, etc, I submit that Humanity is in real trouble.
J.C.Grobler.
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November 1st, 2007 at 12:01 am
I am afraid, a single line in your post says it all, and makes what you are saying just a load of trash. It strangely makes the existence of israel as important today as it was for the jews of ethiopia a few years previously, the jews of russia before that, the jews, of the middle east and northern africa before that,
Lets look at this single line.
“Will we again have to accept responsibility for the suffering you have caused yourself?”
Though the holocaust was of cause the most memorable, because over six million germans, including over 1 million children, were murdered because they were jewish, no other reason, with the hope of extinguishing every one through a final ’solution’ and the world did nothing. Please let us not forget, the mass deaths and pogroms of russia and eastern Europe, nor the the persecution, in Northern africa and the middle east, perhaps even further back to the spanish inquistion, and so the list can go on…
And the world did what? Well I suppose exactly as you would like it to do, sat back and got angry.(sometimes).
So with a few breaks of time in the chain the world has shown how much they are actually willing to do for you when you are persecuted.
What this has done has taken it beyond a religion, and has made sure the people stayed a nation, as they were before being expelled by the romans.
And so after the holocaust, perhaps the most cataclysmic of these events, happened the jews went home, as they saw it. Not all, of course not. Lots lived in places where there was no persecution, and others had fled to places where there was no persecution, and so had no need to go anywhere. But the others, the ones that went saw it as going home.
And so the land there is not a religious war, as propaganda groups such as hamas would like you to brainwashed into understanding, between two national groups over the same land. The palestinians, were formed into a national group by the persecution they experienced in the arab world. A more subtle persecution, but persecution none the less. Much like the jews, they also don’t want to be ruled by anyone else, so they too need a country. Unfortunately its the same land, and so we have fighting.
Unfortunately today wars aren’t won by who is stronger, it is won by signing a contract. Both sides making concessions. Both sides. And for the violence to stop. On both sides.
But then take this conflict and use it as a warning?
‘For Jews to continue with their present course of behaviour in Israel – with the moral support of Jews worldwide - how long do you think before hate has escalated to such heights, that the next and even worse Holocaust takes place?’
It all actually starts to become a little scary. What firstly does a jew in south africa, or south america have to do with this? Are you saying that they could get murdered because they have a political opinion about foreign affairs?
Very interesting opinion. ( I have noticed that just under half your article is devoted to the jews, with a fantastic twist in the second last paragraph.)
Though I suppose when you believe yourself to be a voice of moral aloofness, with no real understanding of the complexities that undershadow these situations, you become much like those you purport to hate, like your generalizations throughout your post. If you are the moral authority in this world then your final line is true, and I submit, humanity is in trouble.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:05 am
JP: The allegation that the world did nothing while Jews were exterminated by the Germans is one that I have often heard before. The insinuation is that we should, in a sense, accept co-responsibility together with the Germans, for the deaths of 6 million Jews. It is particularly this attitude that infuriates me and to which I referred when I asked whether the world will be held morally responsible in future too.
You are reminded that the rest of the world was fighting for their live, including the lives of Jews. Nations from all over the world were busy being killed by a common enemy, i.e. the Germans. Several members of my family including my father fought in that war. If America did not intervene, as they did, the rest of the free world would most probably been over run by the Nazis. Many were killed in the process. In fact 61 million people were killed during that war.
So, please, don’t say we did nothing. The rest of the world was being killed right next to the Jews!
Further, stop saying we, ordinary mortals, have no insight in the complexities of the Israel/Palestinian crisis. The fact of the matter is that it was the international community that re-instated the Jews in Israel in 1948 under very specific conditions as set out in the Partition Plan. Since that time the Jews have settled in quite nicely while the Palestinians are still waiting – after almost 60 years – for their “Promised Land” to become reality.
In regard to the “moral support of Jews worldwide” you are twisting the meaning. Especially the powerful lobby of Jews in the US – through the US government - is rendering support to an Israel position that ensures that no settlement will ever be possible. In this sense they are just as responsible for the intransigence which lies at the root of the conflict.
No sir, we do not hate Jews. Neither do we hate Arabs. We want peace and we want to see an end to a dangerous situation which is polarizing the world and lead to a terminal disaster.
Moral authority? No, that is a position specifically reserved for Jews only.
JCG.
November 1st, 2007 at 10:05 am
You are not understanding… I am not asking you to feel resposible or guilty. I am not asking you to have the blood on your hands as the nazis did. I am just showing what the world does.
It is happening again today, in burma, it happened in rwanda, it has happened in china, it is happening in iran, where people are being persecuted because of religion or political viewpoints and the world does nothing. It is a statement of fact.
It is the reason the israel fights for its existence as a jewish state in the middle east. It is not about your guilt as much as you might want to believe that. They do not care whether you feel guilty or not. It is about an understanding that to survive, without persecution, they need to have a place to do it. A place to protect, that is willing to protect them. From history, we can see the world is not willing to protect, those it does not see as it own, whether it is jews, muslims, blacks, tibetians, ba’hai, and the list can go on…
Of course the palestinians need a place of their own. They need that same protection, but to blame purely the US and israel, for the situation is israel is laughable, and shows that you (not ordinary mortals), but you, have no understanding of the complexities of the situation. You show no recognition of the will of the arab states, to keep this eternal war going, you show no understanding of the part the palenstinians themselves play in it.
And by the way israel is not just a haven for the jews, but also for most religions, that are persecuted in the middle east, such as the ba’hai. It is the one haven for homosexuality in the entire middle east, it is becoming a haven for sudanese refugees fleeing egypt. It is a place where women have equal rights to men, and all religions are protected by law and human rights are protected by law. It is a place where all religious structures are protected by the state, whether muslim, christian, jewish or other. So when you speak about Israel, please speak about israeli’s, which includes, druze, jews, bahai, muslims, christians, blacks, whites, arabs, etc. Otherwise your posts and comments just seems to take on a mildly anti-semitic undertone.
Again I say it is a far from perfect situation, but peace will never be found until the palestinians lower their weapons, and are willing to make concessions.
And though the world is ignoring it, there is some movement happening towards a good end, coming from the west bank and abbas. Maybe some solution can be found with him, and hopefully sometime in the future the palestinans can have a state of their own.
But then again, from your bigoted views expressed both in your post and in your comment, i wouldn’t expect you to understand.
November 1st, 2007 at 2:07 pm
It took a bit longer than I thought for the anti-Semitism card to be played. It was however expected because why should you not use your most powerful weapon to discredit the person rather than dealing with the issue at hand. The problem I however see is that once Israel and the Palestinians succeed in causing a global military conflict and the nuclear destruction starts, it will not discriminate between Jews and Arabs, Semites and anti-Semites. It will be the end of us all. So, call me what you wish but I and all others who are at risk, have a right to become involved and to criticize when we feel that one or both of the parties to this conflict are not doing enough to ensure a peaceful settlement.
To make the categorical statement that I do not know and understand what it is to fight for survival, without persecution, with security and a place Jews can call their own, is also misplaced. You do not know anything about me to make that kind of assertion. Everyone who does not agree unconditionally “does not understand”. The fact of the matter is that there are numerous UN resolutions which Israel is not complying with. They have a finding of the International Court of Justice against them in regard to the Wall being erected. They have chosen to ignore it. Although I may be ignorant, the members of the UN and the judges of the ICJ aren’t. They tell me that Israel is on the wrong side of the law and I am starting to believe them.
Although I whole heartedly agree with you on the issues of Burma, Rwanda, etc I don’t think it is relevant to this discussion. Let’s stick to the Israel/Palestine issue.
Except for a few extremist I do not think there is anybody in the world who begrudges Israelis their own country. Remember that they lost it and the world gave it back to them. Although there are many more UN resolutions in favor of the Palestinians, critical resolutions were past to protect Israel and the Jews. The international community has done what it can to accommodate Jewish aspirations. So, let’s try and limit the self-pity.
The fact of the matter is that it is now time for Israel to perform. Going into negotiations (in regard to Jerusalem) on the bases of being prepared to divide the city by giving some remote shantytown to the Palestinians,only goes to show that Israel is not sincere.
I do accept that the Arabs are just as much part of the problem as Israel. When Israel withdrew from Gaza they had a wonderful opportunity to move on in the right direction. They messed it up. Just when we thought that the parties were moving closer to each other, they go and vote a Hamas government into power. How stupid can you get?!
But even taking this into account, Israel is the stronger party. It has enormous material and intellectual resources at its disposal. To exercise their prowess at negotiation with a nation that has nothing to offer, is morally wrong and prolonging the conflict.
J.C.G
November 1st, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Firstly, I am not playing the anti semetic card… in your post, you firstly blamed the jews for causing the holocaust, to give you your line again… ““Will we again have to accept responsibility for the suffering you have caused yourself?” And then you warn the jews, that by having a political opinion different to yours they are heading towards another holocaust. You definately did not see the need to include any other people in that warning, but then again maybe I am misinterpretting you as the president of iran has been misinterpreted over and over again.
Secondly when I am talking about the arabic nations, which do include the palestinians, I am also talking about Syria, Lebanon, Iraq (under Saddam Hussein who would give families of suicide bombers 20 000 dollars) Jordan, and almost every other nation that surrounds them. I am afraid they much like you accuse israel and the US, want to keep this war going. They do not want peace.
About the UN, well that is a whole matter in itself, Its almost supernatural has a great post on that, http://supernatural.blogs.com/weblog/2007/11/the-un-does-isr.html
and from there you can look at www.unwatch.com.
Can you please also direct me to the resolutions that the UN made that ”
Don’t forget when you talk about jerusalem, from 1948-1967 jews were not allowed into jerusalem, their holiest city, and a place that has always had a jewish presence, in fact before 1948, the old city had a jewish majority. What has happened that has can be used as trust that, that won’t happen again?
And lastly, looking at your last paragraph, what exactly are you wanting israel to do?
Not negotiate? Not fight back if missiles and suicide bombers are targeting its civilians? You are very quick to point out the problems, what may I ask would you do if you were israel, and your choice of negotiating partners are hamas, and fatah? (By the way, I am assuming you have read the hamas charter and know what they stand for).
And I am glad in this comment you decided to talk about israelis and not just the jews, as it probably is one of the most multicultural places in the world, and without doubt, the most multicultural place in the middle east.
November 1st, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Sorry the one line is can you please direct me to the un resolutions that were, “critical resolutions were past to protect Israel and the Jews.”
November 2nd, 2007 at 4:25 am
JP: In regard to your last comments I would like to respond in a posting. JCG.